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A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Discuss whatever you like, whenever you like, however you like

Moderators: Streaker, Mr Q

Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Mr Q on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:00 pm

farmer joe wrote:In regards to the Greens....whilst they support the population Ponzi in Australia I will continue to see them as the ultimate hypocrite's and biggest sellout's to their core constituency. How can Big Australia ever be "good" for the environment?


In what way do they support the "population Ponzi"?

The only real comment the Greens make on immigration is to perhaps not stick asylum seekers in offshore detention where there's no possibility of openness and transparency. Asylum seekers, even at their largest numbers, barely make a dent on overall migration into the country, and the Greens at least question things like 457 visas, which actually do see jobs given to non-Australians.

To put this in perspective, the 11,970 humanitarian refugees that we took in 2014 were about 8% of the total permanent migration to Australia, and in nearly any year, it's only 8-10% of the migration growth. Which equates to less than 4% of overall population growth in the country in any given year. So, for every humanitarian immigrant, the population also adds another 24 people.

The fear of boat people overrunning us is one of the greatest lies perpetrated on the Australian population.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby MrWoollie on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:01 pm

Total Package wrote:
Mr Q wrote:Finally, I'd suggest that the Greens are pretty vilified by large sections of Australia. If anything, they get a lot more vilification than Hanson ever does.


I wanted to vote Greens 2nd last only to the Libs... until I noticed a party calling the "Australian Cyclists Party". Suddenly a new loser emerged.

I always start at the bottom and work up. There are so many I want to put last but I always start with the god botherers.
Fed Nile last, then Australian christians.
Then the idiots. Jacqui Lambie, Katter, Hanson etc.
Then the communists and their ilk (greens, socialist alliance) etc.
Then the idiot parties, Pirate Party, Shooters, Sex Party and so on.
Then the real parties I don't like.

And I'm left with... no bastard I like.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby farmer joe on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:11 pm

Mr Q wrote:
farmer joe wrote:In regards to the Greens....whilst they support the population Ponzi in Australia I will continue to see them as the ultimate hypocrite's and biggest sellout's to their core constituency. How can Big Australia ever be "good" for the environment?


In what way do they support the "population Ponzi"?

The only real comment the Greens make on immigration is to perhaps not stick asylum seekers in offshore detention where there's no possibility of openness and transparency. Asylum seekers, even at their largest numbers, barely make a dent on overall migration into the country, and the Greens at least question things like 457 visas, which actually do see jobs given to non-Australians.

To put this in perspective, the 11,970 humanitarian refugees that we took in 2014 were about 8% of the total permanent migration to Australia, and in nearly any year, it's only 8-10% of the migration growth. Which equates to less than 4% of overall population growth in the country in any given year. So, for every humanitarian immigrant, the population also adds another 24 people.

The fear of boat people overrunning us is one of the greatest lies perpetrated on the Australian population.

You wont get an argument from me on here about the asylum seekers. The number is kinda irrelevant in the whole immigration debate.
What we should be talking about is the massive increase in the population since 2002 through 457's and other visa classes including the student visa. Immigration is being used to support houses prices in this country (aka the Population Ponzi and I do know you understand what I am on about). The greens support it by not campaigning against it and not highlighting the link between high immigration, lack of infrastructure and falling living standards. By publicly supporting high immigration they are supporting the Population Ponzi and high Australian house prices.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Mr Q on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:02 am

MrWoollie wrote:I always start at the bottom and work up. There are so many I want to put last but I always start with the god botherers.
Fed Nile last, then Australian christians.

The AC are actually a splinter group from the FN group.
MrWoollie wrote:Then the idiots. Jacqui Lambie, Katter, Hanson etc.

Well yes. Though we didn't really get much of them in WA.
MrWoollie wrote:Then the communists and their ilk (greens, socialist alliance) etc.

Ah, the old "communist" chestnut. As I said before, the Greens would, in other quite western parts of the world, be seen as a centre-left social democratic party (and likely one of the dominant parties. Equating anything that's left of the Australian consensus as "communist" is insane. It's like calling the right wing of the Liberals fascists.
MrWoollie wrote:Then the idiot parties, Pirate Party, Shooters, Sex Party and so on.

Well the Shooters are gun nuts, which by definition makes them loonies, but the other two you mention are fairly much centre-left parties with surprisingly well developed policy platforms. Their names are designed to get attention, but they're not loonies in general. You might not agree with their platforms, but they're not one issue nuts (like say Hinch).

The splintering of the left is much more pronounced than the right. On the right, typically the smaller parties tend to the extremes, while on the left, typically they're fairly centre-left, with the exception of the Socialist Alliance who are very left wing (though still not communist).
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Fair Bump Play On on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:22 am

MrWoollie wrote:
Total Package wrote:
Mr Q wrote:Finally, I'd suggest that the Greens are pretty vilified by large sections of Australia. If anything, they get a lot more vilification than Hanson ever does.


I wanted to vote Greens 2nd last only to the Libs... until I noticed a party calling the "Australian Cyclists Party". Suddenly a new loser emerged.

I always start at the bottom and work up. There are so many I want to put last but I always start with the god botherers.
Fed Nile last, then Australian christians.
Then the idiots. Jacqui Lambie, Katter, Hanson etc.
Then the communists and their ilk (greens, socialist alliance) etc.
Then the idiot parties, Pirate Party, Shooters, Sex Party and so on.
Then the real parties I don't like.

And I'm left with... no bastard I like.


Good voting method, I do similar except Family First are my favourite party to number last. For many years it was the individual Noel Crichton-Browne last and I'm pretty sure I was not alone in doing that.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Fat Side on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:37 am

Mr Q wrote:
farmer joe wrote:In regards to the Greens....whilst they support the population Ponzi in Australia I will continue to see them as the ultimate hypocrite's and biggest sellout's to their core constituency. How can Big Australia ever be "good" for the environment?


In what way do they support the "population Ponzi"?

The only real comment the Greens make on immigration is to perhaps not stick asylum seekers in offshore detention where there's no possibility of openness and transparency. Asylum seekers, even at their largest numbers, barely make a dent on overall migration into the country, and the Greens at least question things like 457 visas, which actually do see jobs given to non-Australians.

To put this in perspective, the 11,970 humanitarian refugees that we took in 2014 were about 8% of the total permanent migration to Australia, and in nearly any year, it's only 8-10% of the migration growth. Which equates to less than 4% of overall population growth in the country in any given year. So, for every humanitarian immigrant, the population also adds another 24 people.

The fear of boat people overrunning us is one of the greatest lies perpetrated on the Australian population.


The big issue which has been largely ignored by the broader media is the corruption that is occurring in the business, student and 457 immigration industry. Border Force is at the centre of accusations of corruption in addition to allegations of corruption within immigration agents etc.

The accusations relate to businesses and immigration agents applying for visas for jobs that don't exist or for jobs that they claim the applicant will perform, but upon arrival, perform a much more menial task using skills that are not sought for 457 visas. The applicants (those seeking to enter Australia) are being slugged excessive costs in order to get into the country.

And the country bleats about asylum seekers.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby farmer joe on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:52 am

Fat Side wrote:The big issue which has been largely ignored by the broader media is the corruption that is occurring in the business, student and 457 immigration industry. Border Force is at the centre of accusations of corruption in addition to allegations of corruption within immigration agents etc.

The accusations relate to businesses and immigration agents applying for visas for jobs that don't exist or for jobs that they claim the applicant will perform, but upon arrival, perform a much more menial task using skills that are not sought for 457 visas. The applicants (those seeking to enter Australia) are being slugged excessive costs in order to get into the country.

And the country bleats about asylum seekers.

We need them in anyway we can as house prices only go up in Australia. It's a pretty simple concept, but one that never gets spoken about, in that if immigration or population growth falls then house prices will also fall. Hence why the LNP, ALP and Greens are all in favor of high immigration and allow the Visa rorting that we all know about to continue.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Fair Bump Play On on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:18 pm

Mr Q wrote:
farmer joe wrote:In regards to the Greens....whilst they support the population Ponzi in Australia I will continue to see them as the ultimate hypocrite's and biggest sellout's to their core constituency. How can Big Australia ever be "good" for the environment?


In what way do they support the "population Ponzi"?

The only real comment the Greens make on immigration is to perhaps not stick asylum seekers in offshore detention where there's no possibility of openness and transparency. Asylum seekers, even at their largest numbers, barely make a dent on overall migration into the country, and the Greens at least question things like 457 visas, which actually do see jobs given to non-Australians.

To put this in perspective, the 11,970 humanitarian refugees that we took in 2014 were about 8% of the total permanent migration to Australia, and in nearly any year, it's only 8-10% of the migration growth. Which equates to less than 4% of overall population growth in the country in any given year. So, for every humanitarian immigrant, the population also adds another 24 people.

The fear of boat people overrunning us is one of the greatest lies perpetrated on the Australian population.


I know you will not like this Q but maybe the "greatest lie" possibly was not a lie after all?
2007-08 financial year = 25
2008-09 financial year = 1033
2009-10 financial year = 5609
2010-11 financial year = 4940
2011-12 financial year = 7983
2012-13 financial year = 25173
One can only speculate where this was going before the Rudd / Abbott unwelcoming polices kicked in.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ ... atArrivals

Just pointing it out. For the record I love living in a multicultural, relatively tolerant country and hope things stay that way. The environment and population are however interlinked and it is worth considering; locally and globally.
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Past sponsor; 2016 self appointed sponsor of Sam it's better with Butler, 2015 of Jamie lace out Bennell, Scooter - future vice-captain - Selwood. 2013 of Mitch - Mr Required - Brown, (And he stayed), 2012 of Scott - the future - Lycett, (And he is), 2011 of Vice Captain – fair, but get out of his way - Beau Waters, (His greatest year)
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Eliot Mess on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:29 pm

Fair Bump Play On wrote:
Mr Q wrote:
farmer joe wrote:In regards to the Greens....whilst they support the population Ponzi in Australia I will continue to see them as the ultimate hypocrite's and biggest sellout's to their core constituency. How can Big Australia ever be "good" for the environment?


In what way do they support the "population Ponzi"?

The only real comment the Greens make on immigration is to perhaps not stick asylum seekers in offshore detention where there's no possibility of openness and transparency. Asylum seekers, even at their largest numbers, barely make a dent on overall migration into the country, and the Greens at least question things like 457 visas, which actually do see jobs given to non-Australians.

To put this in perspective, the 11,970 humanitarian refugees that we took in 2014 were about 8% of the total permanent migration to Australia, and in nearly any year, it's only 8-10% of the migration growth. Which equates to less than 4% of overall population growth in the country in any given year. So, for every humanitarian immigrant, the population also adds another 24 people.

The fear of boat people overrunning us is one of the greatest lies perpetrated on the Australian population.


I know you will not like this Q but maybe the "greatest lie" possibly was not a lie after all?
2007-08 financial year = 25
2008-09 financial year = 1033
2009-10 financial year = 5609
2010-11 financial year = 4940
2011-12 financial year = 7983
2012-13 financial year = 25173
One can only speculate where this was going before the Rudd / Abbott unwelcoming polices kicked in.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ ... atArrivals

Just pointing it out. For the record I love living in a multicultural, relatively tolerant country and hope things stay that way. The environment and population are however interlinked and it is worth considering; locally and globally.


This point has been established previously on this forum.

It wasn't fear of being over-run (simple maths). It WAS escalating and it was something the majority did not want. We should be able to have it the way we want it, and not have it gallop along for the convenience and profit of Ustad the people smuggler. Fuck 'im.

Anyways, it's much cheaper for them to fly.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Tagger24 on Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:44 pm

Eliot Mess wrote:
Fair Bump Play On wrote:I know you will not like this Q but maybe the "greatest lie" possibly was not a lie after all?
2007-08 financial year = 25
2008-09 financial year = 1033
2009-10 financial year = 5609
2010-11 financial year = 4940
2011-12 financial year = 7983
2012-13 financial year = 25173
One can only speculate where this was going before the Rudd / Abbott unwelcoming polices kicked in.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ ... atArrivals

Just pointing it out. For the record I love living in a multicultural, relatively tolerant country and hope things stay that way. The environment and population are however interlinked and it is worth considering; locally and globally.


This point has been established previously on this forum.

It wasn't fear of being over-run (simple maths). It WAS escalating and it was something the majority did not want. We should be able to have it the way we want it, and not have it gallop along for the convenience and profit of Ustad the people smuggler. Fuck 'im.

Anyways, it's much cheaper for them to fly.

Yeh except.... what you both have wrong, and indeed, the entire mainstream debate in Australia had wrong, is that everyone assumes that the increase in numbers (which I don't deny) was due to pull factors (apparently because it was so easy to get into the country at that stage). When noone in that debate had a clue what the push factors at the time were.

Asylum seekers arriving in Australia during that period were almost exclusively Sri Lankan Tamils and Hazara from Afghanistan.

Regarding the Tamils, in mid-2009 the Sri Lankan government (representing the Sinhalese majority) won the civil war in that country and the military began the occupation of Tamil-majority areas. Then began the arbitrary arrests by police forces, arbitrary detainment, the disappearance of people with the slightest suspicion of being connnected with the Tamil rebels, discrimination, etc. etc. Not to mention the few hundred thousand internally-displaced people who were kept in horrible camps by the Sri Lankan government. Those events triggered a large flux of Tamil refugees headed for Australia. That number then later dropped off as the sitution settled down (my view is that international observation of the situation meant that the Sri Lankan government had to be more careful in its actions. There are still reports of the above though).

Also around the same time, Islamist militant groups had regained control of large parts of central Afghanistan and the border areas of Pakistan. The Shia Hazara have long faced persecution by the Sunni-majority ethnic groups of the region (mostly Pashtun) and have been targeted by Sunni Islamists in the past. Unfortunately, with the militants regaining power, the attacks on the Hazaras started up again in earnest, particularly in the refugee area/diaspora in and around Quetta in Pakistan. Strangely enough, the high risk of being killed by radical militants convinced many Hazara that getting the hell out of the region was probably a good idea. Unfortunately, those attacks are still occurring and Hazaras still make the largest group of people seeking asylum in Australia.

What really gets me is the arrogance and conceit that our immigration policies in Australia somehow actually affects the decision making of someone fearing for their safety in Sri Lanka/Afghanistan. I know it is a bit scary for the average, slightly xenophobic Australian worried about the invasion of brown people from the north to accept that we don't actually control who decides to seek asylum here. But the reality of the matter is that little of what we do actually affects the global movement of people.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Eliot Mess on Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:50 pm

Asylum seeker {equals not} Irregular Maritime Arrival.

Most of them refugees came by plane cos they were refugees.

So why not get a plane? It's quicker, safer and cheaper.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Fat Side on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:24 am

Tagger24 wrote:
Eliot Mess wrote:
Fair Bump Play On wrote:I know you will not like this Q but maybe the "greatest lie" possibly was not a lie after all?
2007-08 financial year = 25
2008-09 financial year = 1033
2009-10 financial year = 5609
2010-11 financial year = 4940
2011-12 financial year = 7983
2012-13 financial year = 25173
One can only speculate where this was going before the Rudd / Abbott unwelcoming polices kicked in.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ ... atArrivals

Just pointing it out. For the record I love living in a multicultural, relatively tolerant country and hope things stay that way. The environment and population are however interlinked and it is worth considering; locally and globally.


This point has been established previously on this forum.

It wasn't fear of being over-run (simple maths). It WAS escalating and it was something the majority did not want. We should be able to have it the way we want it, and not have it gallop along for the convenience and profit of Ustad the people smuggler. Fuck 'im.

Anyways, it's much cheaper for them to fly.

Yeh except.... what you both have wrong, and indeed, the entire mainstream debate in Australia had wrong, is that everyone assumes that the increase in numbers (which I don't deny) was due to pull factors (apparently because it was so easy to get into the country at that stage). When noone in that debate had a clue what the push factors at the time were.

Asylum seekers arriving in Australia during that period were almost exclusively Sri Lankan Tamils and Hazara from Afghanistan.

Regarding the Tamils, in mid-2009 the Sri Lankan government (representing the Sinhalese majority) won the civil war in that country and the military began the occupation of Tamil-majority areas. Then began the arbitrary arrests by police forces, arbitrary detainment, the disappearance of people with the slightest suspicion of being connnected with the Tamil rebels, discrimination, etc. etc. Not to mention the few hundred thousand internally-displaced people who were kept in horrible camps by the Sri Lankan government. Those events triggered a large flux of Tamil refugees headed for Australia. That number then later dropped off as the sitution settled down (my view is that international observation of the situation meant that the Sri Lankan government had to be more careful in its actions. There are still reports of the above though).

Also around the same time, Islamist militant groups had regained control of large parts of central Afghanistan and the border areas of Pakistan. The Shia Hazara have long faced persecution by the Sunni-majority ethnic groups of the region (mostly Pashtun) and have been targeted by Sunni Islamists in the past. Unfortunately, with the militants regaining power, the attacks on the Hazaras started up again in earnest, particularly in the refugee area/diaspora in and around Quetta in Pakistan. Strangely enough, the high risk of being killed by radical militants convinced many Hazara that getting the hell out of the region was probably a good idea. Unfortunately, those attacks are still occurring and Hazaras still make the largest group of people seeking asylum in Australia.

What really gets me is the arrogance and conceit that our immigration policies in Australia somehow actually affects the decision making of someone fearing for their safety in Sri Lanka/Afghanistan. I know it is a bit scary for the average, slightly xenophobic Australian worried about the invasion of brown people from the north to accept that we don't actually control who decides to seek asylum here. But the reality of the matter is that little of what we do actually affects the global movement of people.


Very concise and well written. Thanks for info.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Tagger24 on Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:18 pm

Eliot Mess wrote:Asylum seeker {equals not} Irregular Maritime Arrival.

Most of them refugees came by plane cos they were refugees.

So why not get a plane? It's quicker, safer and cheaper.

FBPO posted a list of asylum seeker arrivals by boats, that's what I was responding to (click the link, it's right there).

And if that question isn't rhetorical... well, I have spoken to one or two refugees myself, a couple of refugee advocates and read quite a bit on the broad topic. From that, this is my understanding.

Firstly, the most people who arrive by boat aren't from a high SES. And because we are talking low SES from areas of Sri Lanka/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran/Burma, that means we are talking higher rates of illiteracy, poor access to internet etc etc. These people often don't have the means or know-how to contact a legitimate lawyer to organise an asylum claim or know that they could enter an Australian embassy to claim asylum (that is, if there is even an embassy anywhere near them).

Concerning the aslyum seekers from the Middle East; as far as I know, the way it works is that you first pay one people smuggler in your country of origin. They organise a forged passport, papers, a flight to Indonesia or Malaysia, and they bribe the immigration official at the port of arrival. The people smuggler may direct you to a contact in Indo to organise the trip to Australia, or the asylum seeker has to find one themselves. It is rare that a people smuggler in the country of origin will organise the whole trip. The asylum seeker then must pay a second smuggler for the boat trip to Australia. As to why they then take a boat and not a plane to Australia? Simple, Australian border security is much stronger and more secure than Indonesia. A person of distinct ME origin trying to enter the country via Indonesia sticks out like a sore thumb. Again, as far as I know, the majority of people arriving by plane are usually high SES (intellectuals typically) who have pissed off the government of China/India/Iran and, because they are coming from a country with plenty of legitimate tourists and immigrants, can easily secure a visa and then claim asylum when let into the country.

Tamils and Rohingyas (Muslim ethnic minority who are persecuted by the Burmese-majority in Burma) have it slightly different. They are obvious ethnic minorities with different languages, names and appearances. To leave the country by plane, they have to go through an airport controlled by the same government that persecutes them. And I know that the Sri Lankan government is not kind on Tamils trying to leave the country. For the Tamils, it is much easier to jump on a boat and the currents take you straight to Australia.....
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby Fair Bump Play On on Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:27 pm

For planes you want the link:
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ ... sylumFacts

Air arrival Protection visa (PV) applications lodged:
2012-13 financial year = 8480 (Which was only 31.6% of total applications, boat arrivals being 68.4%)

Tagger24 wrote:What really gets me is the arrogance and conceit that our immigration policies in Australia somehow actually affects the decision making of someone fearing for their safety in Sri Lanka/Afghanistan. I know it is a bit scary for the average, slightly xenophobic Australian worried about the invasion of brown people from the north to accept that we don't actually control who decides to seek asylum here. But the reality of the matter is that little of what we do actually affects the global movement of people.


But immigration policies in Australia do control who arrives in Australia, can stop the Pull. The Rudd / Abbott change to unwelcoming policies did indeed stop the boats? I hate Abbott personally but evidence is evidence.

I do not agree with the assertion that the average Australian is xenophobic and fears “brown” people. Having travelled a fair bit I reckon Australia is the just about - if not - the best example of a multicultural country I’ve seen. I will not disagree that racial and particularly religious tension is on the rise, but on the whole we are still a pretty well integrated country and one to be proud of. Mostly Australians have been happy with an ordered refugee intake as part of a migration program – or it would not happen at all and One Nation would be in power - but they do care about Australia being in charge of it’s own immigration. I don’t think that’s xenophobic; maybe not as generous as some would like but not xenophobic. I also reckon most people here don’t care about racial origin that much; just have a look at the amount of inter cultural and racial marriage around to see that generally people just don’t care about such things as keeping ‘the race pure,’ or what colour their own children’s skin is, particularly past the 1st generation. Maybe I look through rose coloured glasses but that’s my observation.

I’d be interested to know your opinion of my ‘former refugee’ neighbour? Xenophobic? He wanted the boats stopped when they were coming, the rich “queue jumpers” were taking up “intake quota” and denying his community a chance to get out of the camps they had waited in for many years and even delaying indefinitely family reunions, his own mother eventually ending up in another country (his greater family now split between several countries). A point politician’s often try to make. He also was adamant many of the boat people were not from the countries they claimed, his opinion as a former refugee, I would have no idea.

As for push – pull factors; let’s face it living in Australia is like winning the lottery and most of the world is pretty shit in comparison so we will always have Pull Factor. There are numerous reasons for many people not living in the 1st world to have a push factor and you give some fine examples but then there are so many understandable push factors all over the world; conflict, political, religious, over population, economic, but taking a handful of refugees is not going to solve the worlds push factors. Chances are that if the 1st world could somehow suddenly take in the 60 million refugees and displaced people, (Dec 2015) then five years later the world would have an equal or even greater number. Solutions will be able to help far more people if Push Factors are addressed at the country of origins - not sure the world ever will – but resettling refugees can only ever help the comparatively lucky few.
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Re: A choice of two turkeys - aka the federal election

Postby sydney eagle on Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:55 pm

I voted for the Pirate Party in the senate. Having had a look at their website I found several policies that I could support.
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