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The "state of the game"

Discuss the AFL, other clubs and the game in general

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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Voice of Reason on Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:58 am

I can tell you what’s wrong with the game: it’s run by greedy, selfish Victorians.

Stephen Hocking talks like the worst kind of corporate weasel.

The Victorian media are a buch of back-slapping in-crowders.

There is an article on the AFL app that says Sam Mitchell is going back to Victoria at the end of this season. I don’t know if it’s true. It is not on the WCE app, so we have the AFL actively undermining our club.

Masten’s quote above shows that WA is irrelevant.

Richmond are allegedly unbeatable - on their home ground where they play most of the time and on GF day.

The last five flags have been won by Victorian teams against interstate opposition.

Attempts to move the VFL have been half-hearted (except the Swans in the 80s when South was bankrupt and forced to go) so Gold Coast is a basket case.

The State leagues are falling apart because the AFL interstate sides started as State teams and work for themselves, not for football in the State - read Mr Q’s post on the WAFL forum. The dilution, caused by too many Victorian teams, means an uneven draw and unfair competition.

My WAFL club is in voluntary administration and may not survive because of a deficiency that is less than the Eagles will pay Jeremy McGovern for one season.

Demetriou came over here (once) to call Subiaco Oval “shit”, yet the AFL did nothing to help improve that. The new Stadium in Perth is paid for by our taxes, not the VFL, delighted though I am to have it.

The VFL gives little back.

If my WAFL team goes under, I’ll watch soccer instead.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Voice of Reason on Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:52 am

And another thing. I was at "Optus" Stadium twice over the (not a) long weekend:

Sunday afternoon - WCE v Western Bulldogs (used to be Footscray) for a competitive AFL match with about 47,000 other people - nearly all of whom were old, white, West Australians.

Monday night - hopeless Perth Glory v Chelsea in a meaningless pre-season friendly, with about 55,000 other people - in a genuinely diverse, multicultural crowd. All shapes & sizes.

To some extent novelty sells of course.

But I've watched Australian Rules for more than a quarter of a century and soccer for half a century. Australian Rules is the better game to watch, especially live. But soccer is the World Game.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Mr Q on Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:08 am

Voice of Reason wrote:Richmond are allegedly unbeatable - on their home ground where they play most of the time and on GF day.


This shows a massive flaw in the AFL's system.

Richmond can't win on the road this year. They're abysmal when travelling. But because they are Victorian, they can ignore it, and can still finish top.

If they were from Perth, they'd be hoping like hell to get a couple of unexpected away wins so they could scrape into the eight.

Basically: A Vic team that can't win when travelling is favourite for the flag.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Mr Q on Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:29 am

Ultimately, all the pain in developing a "national" competition has been taken on by the smaller AFL states.

WA and SA's competition lost their premier status. It's hard to remember, but back in the early 80s, you could realistically have games between Claremont and Carlton, or Essendon and East Perth (as I remember from one pre-season weekend as a kid). Port Adelaide were a SA club that was the most successful senior club in the land. Some of the great players in history would move to WA/SA for periods during their careers and play for WAFL or SANFL clubs.

Tasmania got right royally shafted. Yes, it's hard to find the money in the Apple Isle for a full time AFL team, but we somehow find enough for nine teams to play out of Victoria (and Hobart is larger than Geelong, and Geelong isn't exactly an economic hotbed without the car industry).

Victoria? Got their clubs saved from themselves at the cost of Fitzroy (South->Sydney was a VFL only move). They even get to count premierships from eras so long ago everyone who watched the GFs are dead. They get the GF at home every single year, and still can't see why this means Vic teams have beaten non-Vic for five straight years. The last time a non-Vic team beat an MCG tenant on GF day was 2002 (and that was the Lions side that I think we don't realise just how f***ing good that team was to win three flags coming from Brisbane, probably the best ever - yes, better than the 2010s Hawks).

The AFL pays lip service to growing the game - and GWS at least were a good idea, but they should have done it by moving Victorian clubs (or telling them to move or be demoted out of the league). That said, looking at how shitty the fringe clubs in Victoria are run, they may have been even worse than expansion clubs.

Oh, and AFL, on another topic - tell the betting industry to go f*** themselves you howling hypocrites. While you're taking blood money from these hypocrites (official "gaming" parter of the AFL - WTF), the integrity of the game is questionable. And while you're at it, tell the clubs they've got five years to wean themselves off pokies in any club sponsored venues (at least our clubs in WA are clean, even it it's only because of legislation). Tell your TV partners that advertising gambling during the game is unacceptable, and mentioning odds in the telecast is forbidden. I don't want my kids growing up thinking that betting on sports is normalised. If that means a drop in TV revenue, then it's about time.

(I'd rather that the Federal government did something about it, like the ban on tobacco advertising back in the 80s/90s, but it certainly won't happen with *this* government, and I doubt that the opposition have the guts to do anything either given they squibbed on pokies before)
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby jourgo on Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:14 am

Never accuse the AFL of not knowing which way the wind blows...

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-07-27/rule-change-trials-unlikely-this-season-ceo

Got a question for ya Gil: what did you think would happen when you announced this hair-brained little idea of yours?

You've now heard it from one of the players, and if he's said it you can bet your arse the rest most likely agree: Stop Fucking With The Game!

And yeah - gambling advertisement of is one of the very rare instances where I'd agree on government intervention IF!!!, there wasn't the very real possibility of them somehow fucking up what should be a very simple issue.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Mr Q on Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:49 am

My preference for gambling advertising would be make it similar to tobacco advertising - invisible.

My minimum would be:
  • No sponsorship of Australian sporting teams by gambling organisations, including venue signage, equipment and clothing signage. Or indeed anything else. Basically no money flows gambling->clubs.
  • No advertising of gambling during, before or after a sporting event on TV
  • No gambling advertising permitted (or mention or links to odds) on sporting websites (I realise that would only impact Australian based ones, but you can only do so much).
  • No "official partners" for "gaming" for any sporting competition.
  • No gambling establishments on site at any sporting venue (so rip the TABs out of Perth Stadium). Not sure about horse racing venues on this...
  • Gambling establishments not permitted to have any sporting event (including races) visible within 50m of a location where a bet can be laid on that event.

I have been approached on a number of occasions by gambling organisations to do sponsorship or content for EFH in exchange for advertising. I usually ignore completely, and if pushed decline as politely as I feel I can when I believe that the organisation approaching me is basically a bunch of leeches.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby jourgo on Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:13 pm

So you wouldn't outlaw gambling itself but you'd make it virtually impossible to gamble from anywhere but your home, the casino, or a TAB.

The sticking point there of course is gambling apps.

And yes - horse racing (and dog racing for that matter) is a very different box of frogs. That sport is built more-or-less on wagering. Take away the ability to bet at the track and you could kill the sport completely.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Fat Side on Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:28 pm

jourgo wrote:So you wouldn't outlaw gambling itself but you'd make it virtually impossible to gamble from anywhere but your home, the casino, or a TAB.

The sticking point there of course is gambling apps.

And yes - horse racing (and dog racing for that matter) is a very different box of frogs. That sport is built more-or-less on wagering. Take away the ability to bet at the track and you could kill the sport completely.


Horse racing and Greyhound racing are sports?
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby jourgo on Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:37 pm

Digressing

Horse racing is the sport of kings in fact.

I'll declare that I go to one race meeting a year typically, and that's at Gloucester Park on Italian Fireworks night around Christmas time. Its a great night out and is the only time during the year where I gamble on anything (unless someone ropes me in to a Melbourne Cup sweep - but I'm not sure that counts).

/Digressing
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Mr Q on Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:10 pm

jourgo wrote:So you wouldn't outlaw gambling itself but you'd make it virtually impossible to gamble from anywhere but your home, the casino, or a TAB.

The sticking point there of course is gambling apps.


You can't outlaw gambling - if you try that, it will just disappear underground - and that ends up with all the problems of organised crime or just end up overseas.

What you can do is regulate it and make it less visible to kids, which will hopefully make them less inclined to think that it's normal to lay a bet on every game, and indeed it somehow makes you more of a supporter if you do.

There was an ad a few years ago (I think it was that wanker Waterhouse) which actually said "you're not a real supporter of your team unless you've got a bet on" (or words to that effect). That's disgraceful.

And just in case anyone thinks I can't see when something is done right by my normal political opposites, well done to the Court Liberals in the 90s who resisted when every other state went hunting the poker machine revenues (as did the last years of the preceding ALP government, and all subsquent WA governments, though the pressure would have been heaviest in the mid 90s). That's cost us dearly as other states get to have that revenue but not counted against GST - if it was counted in GST calculations, WA would still have been stiffed, but nowhere near as badly (plus other states might not have been quite so pokie indebted if it was costing them GST revenue).
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby Mr Q on Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:14 pm

jourgo wrote:And yes - horse racing (and dog racing for that matter) is a very different box of frogs. That sport is built more-or-less on wagering. Take away the ability to bet at the track and you could kill the sport completely.


That's really tough - given the masses of animal rights issues in both sports, you could make an argument that killing the sport completely wouldn't be a bad thing. But in a nation where the Melbourne Cup is deified that's a moot point, not going to happen.

The more I've heard about racing, the less I like it, to the point where I almost ignore the Melb Cup entirely now. But I hope that we can fix the issues rather than kill the sport altogether.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby HH on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:40 pm

Time for a red card rule Gil and VFL. Make it a hard send off rule so no replacement for the sent off player. All red cards go straight to Tribunal for usual suspension and other disciplinary proceedings.

Throwing a punch of any kind, whether it lands or not, gets an automatic red card. Let’s see how serious the VFL is in stamping out violence if this nature on the field.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby WCE Booka 89 on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:47 pm

HH wrote:Time for a red card rule Gil and VFL. Make it a hard send off rule so no replacement for the sent off player. All red cards go straight to Tribunal for usual suspension and other disciplinary proceedings.

Throwing a punch of any kind, whether it lands or not, gets an automatic red card. Let’s see how serious the VFL is in stamping out violence if this nature on the field.


It would be nice, but with the level of umpiring we see, this could go horribly, horribly wrong. Unless they introduce some sort of replay umpire who will review any possible send offs. Will also just encourage diving, which is one thing we most certainly do not want! Could you imagine if a tight grand final is decided based upon one player getting thrown out because his opponent took a dive and the umpire fell for it? In fact, I could just imagine it now, it would surely have to be how Freo wins their first flag...
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby HH on Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:04 pm

Start with baby steps. Reserve red cards only for punches and simulation.

See how that goes.

Hip and shoulders, trips, tunnelling etc get dealt with the old fashioned way and are NOT red card offences.
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Re: The "state of the game"

Postby WCE Booka 89 on Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:11 pm

HH wrote:Start with baby steps. Reserve red cards only for punches and simulation.

See how that goes.

Hip and shoulders, trips, tunnelling etc get dealt with the old fashioned way and are NOT red card offences.


I'd be happier with a Video umpire referral for a red card. That said, we've seen how video replays work so far...
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