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The Everlasting Stadium Thread.

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Postby infiltrator on Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:30 pm

Thrawn666 wrote:I will say it again in this thread so everyone understands

THERE WILL BE NO STADIUM BUILT AT BELMONT PARK

Thank you


Thrawn, can you please elaborate as to why you're so definite on this?

A lot of media & govt people seem to think otherwise, consider:
    Wally Foreman's article in the Sunday Times a month or 2 back
    Stadiumking's link to an article where Sport Minister Bob Kucera proposed it
    The plans the previous state govt had for building a stadium (at Belmont, seating 60,000) if they'd gone ahead with bidding for the 2006 Comm Games


What info do you have that all these people don't? Can you tell us more?
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Postby OoohAhhLeCras on Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:31 pm

Despite its size I love Subiaco Oval. I would hate to go watch the Eagles play anywhere else.
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Postby Royals on Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:36 pm

Thrawn666 wrote:
stadiumking wrote:talk about a new stadium, 60,000 capacity, somewhere else...perhaps at Belmont Park.


I will say it again in this thread so everyone understands

THERE WILL BE NO STADIUM BUILT AT BELMONT PARK

Thank you




and the reason is ??? what the point of making such a big statement without an explanation
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Postby chicky_fanatic on Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:42 pm

i too am a fan of subi oval, even if it is a bit small & in need of an upgrade, and i'm not just just talking about extra capactiy. loving those rumoured to be heritage listed bench seats, or not! but i guess if they get rid of them & replace them with proper seats, the capacity would probaby be further reduced, which is useless.
personally i'm quite a fan of the last minute stroll to the ground for the game. & if i'm heading towards belmont park for a game of footy, i would much prefer if it was because i was on my way to the airport to check out the boys at an away game :lol:
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Postby aza80 on Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:11 pm

i too am a fan of subiaco oval. this is a issue that i have thought about many times. since the current site is too small to accomodate the substantial development required for our growing city and belmont is a horrible distance away from the cbd, i too am a fan of the idea of building a stadium on the current waca site. this could accomodate the current cricket fixtures by using a drop in wicket at subiaco similar to the one used at the telstra dome for the australia V world XI one dayers. it could also liven up the revitalised east perth area. this way a multi purpose football/cricket stadium that is world class could be built for the very deserving city of perth. its just a pity that subiaco, the home of WA football will be sold off for development, but what choice do we have???
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Postby Royals on Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:21 pm

aza80 wrote:belmont is a horrible distance away from the cbd, i too am a fan of the idea of building a stadium on the current waca site.



A good TORPEDO from WACA would near on land at Belmont park :shock:

so not sure how one is horrible far and one is a good place
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Postby infiltrator on Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:23 pm

Okay, my initial post of the forum had me attempt at the Why & What sort of questions (Why We Need It, How Big It Should Be, and Who (Which Sports) Should Be In), and I still had the Where & How (ie. How To Pay For It) ones to come back to.

Taking a leaf from Mr Q’s book and spreading stuff out during the off-season of boredom, I’ll have a crack now at Where and come out with a few options, for you guys to tear to shreds as you see fit. Since there’s no cricket on next weekend, that’ll be a good time for me to try to work out the economics of it all – so (as well as debating the things like Where), can anyone please also contribute anything they might know on the costs (eg. what plots of land like Subi, WACA or Claremont might sell for; what the houses across the road from Subi might cost; what sinking a road costs; what widening a bridge might cost)? Many thanks to stadiumking for all those other links, will check them all out.

Alright, so here we go with my next attempt at a record for world's longest post, hope you can stay awake…

4. WHERE

Am going to start by splitting this into 2 parts – (a) the generic stuff, like which suburbs or general area(s) and what transport attributes we need, and (b) which specific plots of land?

4a. Suburbs/Areas Worth Considering

To cut straight to the chase, TOA, shibz_1989 & Mr Q are all right – it has to be somewhere central or western. As Q said, Waverley is an obvious example, QE2/ANZ Stadium in Brisbane is another. If you put it out 'in the sticks' then a lot of people just won’t bother going, and the wealthy will probably stick to their live Foxtel telecasts in the future. And whilst I'm not going to quite agree with all of TOA's (very amusing) spiel about us being "a Western Suburbs club," it is true that the city’s wealthier people (who might buy corporate boxes and pay for the premium reserved seats) do tend to live around those parts, and they aren’t going to be real fussed about going to any of Joondalup, Cockburn or Lark Hill – any whether we all like it or not, we do need to worry about what the 'people-who-have-the-big-dollars' want.

Having said that, Belmont (Burswood) is not that far away. So I reckon we’re talking about the area roughly bounded by Claremont, Leederville, Belmont/Burswood and the Narrows Bridge.

Other attributes we’re looking for in the area:
    Proximity to a railway would be good
    Parking (and traffic dispersion)
    Good atmosphere in the surrounding area (“heaps of pubs� – good call from Be Aggressive)
    Some degree of attractiveness, to show the city in a good light
    Minimal political dramas, residents/council issues, etc

The big lesson from Telstra Dome, a stack of US cities, Cardiff’s Millenium Stadium, Toronto’s SkyDome & Mumbai’s Wankhede Stadium is that it is very cool (both for the sport and for the city as a whole) if you can locate the main arena bang in the middle of the town. It adds life to the CBD, it’s easy for everyone to get to (your freeway and rail networks are all geared already to go right there), you’ve got big multi-story carparks already there, there are plenty of pre-game and post-game drinking/eating options, it amplifies the whole ‘big occasion’ thing, etc.

Putting your venue right on the river would be the ultimate from a tourism, ‘reflection-on-the-city’ perspective (consider Adelaide Oval, for instance), but this has to also be considered against both (i) the trouble such can cause for your traffic dispersion, if you can’t distribute traffic out through the whole 360-degrees of the compass, and (ii) some of the political dramas you can have with waterfront development. This is especially so in a place like Perth where so many people will always turn out in uproar against any change (eg. shopping hours, daylight saving) or development of any kind (eg. Raffles Hotel, Bell Tower, or just about anything else that’s ever been built).

Subi, as several people have said, is a great suburb in which to have a stadium – has the rail, plenty of nearby pubs and restaurants, and reasonably central. The same probably holds for Leederville & Claremont also. Balanced against this is that all 3 have a big residential (ie. anti-development, anti-noise) element, and also that space is at a premium – ie. you don’t have the opportunity to develop the stadium as part of a broad sports precinct (like MCG & the Tennis Centre & Olympic Park, or Albert Park with the Melb Sports & Aquatic Centre) there.

4b. The Specific Plots of Land

First of all, the existing Subiaco Oval site is only an option if you can buy up some of the surrounding housing. Mr Q mentioned the option of buying the ones across Roberts Rd (and sinking the road), so as to be able to build a decent-sized stand on the southern-side. The other option might be to buy the houses between Subiaco Road and the railway, bulldoze everything (existing stands included) and build an entirely new stadium there. Ironically, the WAFL used to own these houses, and once had a master plan to reorient the ground along a North-South axis (then with plenty of room on the wings), but then they sold those houses off to fund the 2-tier stand in about 1980. Reviving this plan would make it feasible to move cricket there, something that is not on the cards if it continues to be a narrow East-West ground.

For all of the reasons for trying to find a CBD site, I can’t really see too many candidate sites. To kick around a few:
    Wellington Square is probably big enough and is near the rail, but is a rare parkland in a residential area, so too may political issues.
    The Esplanade (the original Perth football ground in the 19th century) and Langley Park aren’t big enough and would be the centre of the world’s biggest political/development bunfight.
    The Entertainment Centre and adjoining carpark (with the railway sunk) is a really well-located spot, but probably too narrow (and certainly not something cricket could be in for, being East-West also).
    The Royal Kings Park Tennis Club site on Kings Park Road is probably a bit too far from the railway, and again, Kings Park is such a 'sacred cow' that it could never be politically palatable.
    Gloucestor Park would be picturesque, but difficult for parking and traffic dispersion, and is increasingly in the middle of a residential area.
    The WACA - probably a pretty similar story to Gloucestor Park next door, although there is plenty of room there at least. Traffic dispersion is the main challenge there, traffic jams getting in & out of the place used to be terrible.
The only other sites where there is plenty of room, where you could build a big stadium and also have plenty of room around (for car parks, other amusements, training grounds, other venues as part of a sports precinct) and that meet out other attributes are Claremont & Burswood.

So, in a nutshell, I reckon the options we’re looking at are:
    New 'greenfields' site at Belmont/Burswood, for footy & cricket (Thrawn666, I’m hearing your denial of this as an option, but I’m leaving it in until you explain why you’re so dismissive of it)
    Claremont (either the existing Showgrounds arena or something that straddles both that and Claremont Oval); could be for both footy & cricket
    Subiaco Oval with existing orientation and expansion across Roberts Road – still a narrow ground, so footy only, no funds available from selling the WACA
    Subiaco Oval site demolished and totally rebuilt, re-oriented North-South, across Subiaco Road, for footy & cricket
    Entertainment Centre car-park site (with railway sunk), narrow East-West ground so footy only, no funds available from selling the WACA

What do you think? Any other potential sites I’ve missed? Any I’ve been too quick to dismiss?

As I said, I'll actually put my head down and my job this week, but I'll have a crack at costing each of these out next weekend (cost to build, cost to re-do traffic plans, cost to maintain, cost of disruptions during the year or 2's construction), and looking at the different funding sources that might be applicable – again, let us know if you know anything about that sort of thing.
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Postby Royals on Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:38 pm

The only thing im pretty sure off is that to get a stadium which will service perth for next 50 years its needs to be Flexible in design and flexible in surrounding areas for the future so it needs to be built from scratch .......so to me add ons to Subi would only delay the problem not fix it .............so as per your post INF It would need to be a NEW stadium in either burswood or claremont as they are the only real long term options
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Postby chicky_fanatic on Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:40 pm

don't think claremont will be much of an option - i believe the tigers are in the process of being booted out of claremont oval to the showgrounds in the next couple of years so the land can be sold for residential development. the council are seeing $$ signs at the prospect of offloading the land, so don't think they will be too keen on giving up their prime real estate for a new stadium.
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Postby aza80 on Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:47 pm

Matt4theMax wrote:
aza80 wrote:belmont is a horrible distance away from the cbd, i too am a fan of the idea of building a stadium on the current waca site.



A good TORPEDO from WACA would near on land at Belmont park :shock:

so not sure how one is horrible far and one is a good place


you can walk to the waca (or catch a cat very easily) from the bus or train station in perth, try walking (or catching public transport) to belmont. might seem like more than a torpedo
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Postby FXD on Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:03 pm

I think it would be very very expensive to buy the property on Roberts Rd, and equally expensive to sink the road (so Roberts Rd runs underneath the stand, right?).

I'd love to keep footy at Subi, it's a fantastic location for post-Footy action, but the space! Argh, the space.

Can't we just close Roberts Rd, and keep the houses there? There's enough space just with the road to expand that southern wing stand?
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Postby Royals on Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:08 pm

aza80 wrote:
Matt4theMax wrote:
aza80 wrote:belmont is a horrible distance away from the cbd, i too am a fan of the idea of building a stadium on the current waca site.



A good TORPEDO from WACA would near on land at Belmont park :shock:

so not sure how one is horrible far and one is a good place


you can walk to the waca (or catch a cat very easily) from the bus or train station in perth, try walking (or catching public transport) to belmont. might seem like more than a torpedo


I do see your point in parts but i think public transport to belmony park would be easier with train station and overpass and polly pipe running along side .........i have found WACA a tuff place to get out off after games there
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Postby Sico 17 on Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:14 pm

Ford wrote:Can't we just close Roberts Rd, and keep the houses there? There's enough space just with the road to expand that southern wing stand?

The problem is Subi council won't let much construction on that side because it will keep the houses in permenant shade and thier plants won't grow. (Good old Tony Costa strikes again!)
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Postby aza80 on Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:15 pm

anywhere close to the cbd will be problematic, but going further out diminishes the atmosphere, its a catch 22
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Postby shibz_1989 on Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:15 pm

Sico 17 wrote:
Ford wrote:Can't we just close Roberts Rd, and keep the houses there? There's enough space just with the road to expand that southern wing stand?

The problem is Subi council won't let much construction on that side because it will keep the houses in permenant shade and thier plants won't grow. (Good old Tony Costa strikes again!)


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