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Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:17 pm
by farmer joe
Mr Q wrote:.
I'm inclined to ignore a money based argument.

You have lost me there?
With free agency lists, contracts and $'s have become much more important. I'd hate to lose McGovern because some crab has been paid more than he should have.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:24 pm
by Fair Bump Play On
lazzas wrote:
Mr Q wrote:
Fat Side wrote:Petrie (could retire)


Has already signalled he'd like to go around again. As long as it's still on the rookie list, I'd have no problem with that, he's been a good performer this year.


Yes I agree Petrie on the Rookie list. He has played well.


List clogger alert! Petrie has played well, with great spirit and won many West Coast fans - including me - but we must not sign him again; for if we sign him the temptation to play him over a younger player will be real, making him a classic list clogger.

Even this year - as it has turned out with us not in serious finals contention - the dozen or so games Petrie will have played are a dozen or so games we could have got into Fraser McInnes. Some will say but McInnes is not as good a player as the aging Petrie and this possibly is true; but if McInnes had played regular games all year then by now he might well be a far better player; one who might be peaking by the time we are in contention again. I hope we keep McInnes on the list next year as I think he can be a great player - if ever given a regular game - and I also expect we will draft some young talls and with NN and SL back we don't need an aged list clogger in the way of the clubs future.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:26 pm
by WCE Booka 89
farmer joe wrote:
Mr Q wrote:.
I'm inclined to ignore a money based argument.

You have lost me there?
With free agency lists, contracts and $'s have become much more important. I'd hate to lose McGovern because some crab has been paid more than he should have.


I think his point is that he believes that if it were a case that we needed an extra hundred thousand for a player that players on the edge of being delisted would be fine renegotiating for a lesser contract instead of being delisted for salary cap room.

I think at the moment that this belief of Q's would ring true, but in 5 or so years it will become less and less likely as player greed will grow

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:58 am
by merovingian
Fair Bump Play On wrote:Even this year - as it has turned out with us not in serious finals contention - the dozen or so games Petrie will have played are a dozen or so games we could have got into Fraser McInnes. Some will say but McInnes is not as good a player as the aging Petrie and this possibly is true; but if McInnes had played regular games all year then by now he might well be a far better player; one who might be peaking by the time we are in contention again.


Amen.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:44 am
by merovingian
Mead wrote:I think the most important considerations driving a list clean out are opportunity and $$$.

Particularly when you're looking at people who are out of contract now, it's not just about what Hill does or doesn't offer on field, it's that he's probably on about 200k a year more than say Karpany, and that's money which might make the difference between trumping freo in a bidding war for McGovern (of either variety)

Then there is the truth that young players rarely show their true mettle until they are given an opportunity to play a key role- does anyone think Tom Mitchell would have had anything like the year he has had if Hawthorn hadn't shipped out Sam Mitchell and Jordan lewis?

Plus for every older average player who is delisted there is a tiny chance that the late pick who replaces them will turn out to be a hidden gem. More delisting equals more potential chances of finding those.


I agree with what you say, but temper it slightly by saying we can't go to the draft looking to fill 8 holes with hidden gems. We can't necessarily de-list everyone who is currently making the de-list lists on this thread.

On the $$$ side of the equation, the thing that frustrates me is our lack of involvement in free agency. I fear the club has never even called Josh Kelly's agent. Although the younger McGovern is a good player, he's not a solution to our glaring weakness. I would be dumbfounded if we used our freed up salary cap to get just him.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:02 am
by merovingian
Fat Side wrote:I'm not in the 'sack Hill' club either, but in fairness you would find most players will have a declining trajectory since 2015. Hill (and other small forwards) are criticised for drifting in and out of games. That is the lot of a small forward. Their impact is dependent on supply and our supply has been ordinary this year.


All that is true. Curiously though, LeCras holds his place continuously, whilst Hill is a frequent scapegoat.

As for the trajectories, most of the core are still trending up, albeit modestly in some cases (and I've left NN out for obvious reasons):

Image
Image
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Image

And then those for whom the bell tolls:

Image

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:22 am
by Streaker
merovingian wrote:Image

And then those for whom the bell tolls:

Image


And yet the one whom the bell tolls is still on a higher rating than the other.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:07 am
by Voice of Reason
Good spot on the axes Streak, but I don't think rating points or stats are necessarily the be-all and end-all.

Impact on the game is the key thing.

It does show personal performance trends, I guess.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:21 pm
by Streaker
Voice of Reason wrote:Good spot on the axes Streak, but I don't think rating points or stats are necessarily the be-all and end-all.

Impact on the game is the key thing.

It does show personal performance trends, I guess.


Lies, Lies and statistics.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:36 pm
by MrWoollie
Streaker wrote:
Voice of Reason wrote:Good spot on the axes Streak, but I don't think rating points or stats are necessarily the be-all and end-all.

Impact on the game is the key thing.

It does show personal performance trends, I guess.


Lies, Lies and statistics.

Three things I have noticed with the rankings system.

1. There is a huge lag in it. This is designed to more accurately reflect sustained performance but deliberately shows trends rather than immediacy. If player X has a great run of 5-6 games it will jump but not the way you would expect it. Take Yeo at the start of this year. Led the coaches votes after about 8 rounds but the jump in player ratings was quite small. Has played well since but nowhere near as well as early this year, but the ratings climb for the entire 2017 is remarkably straight line.
2. Junk stats and pure quantity still impact. They have tried to weigh things with turnovers, effective disposals and so on but pure numbers still matter. A handball directly to a player under the pump is an effective one and good for the stats.
3. Decision making doesn't come into it. A hick backwards to a teammate, even if there was a much better option available, is both a kick and an effective disposal.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:37 pm
by Mr Q
merovingian wrote:On the $$$ side of the equation, the thing that frustrates me is our lack of involvement in free agency.


Xavier Ellis? A gamble that in the end probably didn't work out, but the sort that FA is actually for.

Personally, I think FA will eventually destroy the competition, but that's me.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:24 pm
by Streaker
merovingian wrote:On the $$$ side of the equation, the thing that frustrates me is our lack of involvement in free agency. I fear the club has never even called Josh Kelly's agent. Although the younger McGovern is a good player, he's not a solution to our glaring weakness. I would be dumbfounded if we used our freed up salary cap to get just him.


Tom Rockliff perhaps?

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:39 am
by Fat Side
Streaker wrote:
merovingian wrote:On the $$$ side of the equation, the thing that frustrates me is our lack of involvement in free agency. I fear the club has never even called Josh Kelly's agent. Although the younger McGovern is a good player, he's not a solution to our glaring weakness. I would be dumbfounded if we used our freed up salary cap to get just him.


Tom Rockliff perhaps?


An inside mid accumulator that lacks leg speed. Sound familiar?

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:25 am
by domo_the_eagle
Fat Side wrote:As for the game. It was to be expected really. Our game has been like this since round 7 when we last strung more than one consecutive win. We played for three quarters only this time the one we didn't play was the third not the fourth.

There is no doubt that there are problems and they need to be resolved. I would think that another year like this will see Simpson out of a job before the end of 2018. After three pretty good years, it has unravelled this year (and probably started in the EF last year) and the club needs to work out what went wrong and set about fixing it quickly. I am sure they are doing that (or will post season). I think the decision to top up our rucks with key forwards, along with the post trade/draft decision by the AFL to prohibit the third man up, have combined to significantly weaken our ability to get first hands on the ball.

The issues go deeper than that and, if there are some disgruntled players, the club needs to have it out and resolve it or the players invited to move on. These types of issues tend to raise their heads when a team is not living up to expectation. Pressure is applied by supporters and the media and individuals start looking around for someone else to blame. Jeremy McGovern was in a fine mood after the game joking and cracking jokes in the Bill Walker room so I am not overly concerned about disruption, but it needs to be sorted. They all need to be brought back together. Venables recent contract extension indicates that, although there may be issues within the group, it is still a place where players want to be.


This post was from the round 20 game day thread which was locked.

This offseason is a vital one to lay the ground work on and off the field. We need a new game plan and a restructure of the coaching & player group. Next season would be the ideal time to change the guard in regards to captaincy. Some may say shuey would be the obvious replacement as captain. I disagree, as he is the epitomy of a player who fails to stand up in big games and lacks consistency. The only player who has shone this season has been Kennedy.

Re: End of 2017 Clean Out

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:27 am
by domo_the_eagle
http://www.watoday.com.au/afl/west-coast-eagles/west-coast-faces-delicate-decision-on-future-of-mark-lecras-and-drew-petrie-20170815-gxwxtv.html

Lecras has been hampered by injury for most of the year. Age has unfortunately caught up with this brilliant player. Better for him to go out now while he still has some gas left in the tank.